Ich schickte also folgenden Artikel an die Newsgroup:
Hi folks,
I have just finished the LOTR and I really think it is nice. But did you
notice that Tolkien stole a lot of the names and other stuff from various
rpgīs (rpg = role-playing-game: you can imagine this like reading a book,
the only difference is, that the players jump into the role of a character -
for example Gandalf, the mighty wizard - and decide on their own, how the
story goes on)?
Here some examples that I noticed:
- Tolkien writes something about an armour made of mithril - that is
originally the armour the "High-elves" wear in a strategy game called
"Warhammer".
- There is a forest in LOTR, called Lorien, that as well is stolen from
"Warhammer", actually the real forest (where the forest-elves live) is named
"Loren".
- In another rpg (DSA, no idea, what the English name is), there is a hero
"Arogarn" - so now you may guess three times where strider got his name
from.
That are just three examples that I could remember while writing this
posting, I noticed a lot more when I read the book (I just can remember,
that I knew a few names from "AD&D", = Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, that is
an rpg, too).
Please donīt missunderstand me - I liked the book - I just wanted to let you
know, because that is a thing even most Tolkien-Fans like yo donīt know
about.
So farewell my friends, Daniel
Erste empörte Antworten ließen wie erwartet nicht lange auf sich warten. Im folgenden ist der ganze Thread, der sich aus diesem netten kleinen Posting entwickelt hat, angeführt, denn wegen der vielen Bezugnahmen auf vorherige Postings wäre eine Kürzung nicht möglich gewesen, ohne das Verständnis zu beeinträchtigen.
Es ist vielleicht ein wenig anstrengend, sich durch das Englische zu wühlen, aber dafür könnt Ihr Euch darüber amüsieren, wie diese Typen genau wissen, daß es den "Herrn der Ringe" schon vor den Rollenspielen gab, wie sie über mich (und über Rollenspieler im Allgemeinen) herziehen und sich dabei ohne es zu merken selbst zum Affen machen (vor allem die Amis, doch seht selbst - HE HE!!! :-). Zur Ehrenrettung muß aber gesagt werden, daß noch lange nicht alle auf diesen "Troll", wie man sowas auf englisch nennt, hereingefallen sind was allerdings nur dazu beigetragen hat, daß die anderen bei der ganzen Geschichte noch dümmer aussahen:
You are wrong.
Tolkien is dead. So, your subject line should read: "Tolkien *was*..."
R.L.V.
~~#~~
"Tilde Power!"
Are these guys growing on trees this weather or what?
Sheesh!
M.
<Are these guys growing on trees this weather or what?
><
><Sheesh!
><
><M.
Erh, Michael, you would have preferred that he put smiley in his
satire?
(Gawd, I hope it was satire)
--
Sindamor Pandaturion
><Are these guys growing on trees this weather or what?
> ><
> ><Sheesh!
> ><
> ><M.
> Erh, Michael, you would have preferred that he put smiley in his
> satire?
>
> (Gawd, I hope it was satire)
I responded politely to a polite, mild-mannered TROLL who has made only
one post to this group AFAICS on my news service.
As for his satire. His satire needs some work... ;-)
M.
Nice troll, Daniel, but I don't think you are going to catch too many on this
ng with that one.
Baden
Ah... Daniel...
Be a good boy now and take a wee glance at the copyright information on LOTR.
Yep. That's right. *Decades* before Gygax first published _The DM Guide_ or _The
Player's Handbook._
When I was 10, I had a ranger character in D&D called "Aragorn II." I wasn't
pretentious enough to claim to be the original. And I assure you, I stole it
from LOTR, *not* the other way around!
We're glad you think LOTR is "nice," but trust me: if anyone stole names and
stuff, it's your high and mighty RPGs.
OK, this is a troll, right? Or are you really that logically
impaired?
Tolkien's LOTR was completed in 1954, and became exceedingly popular
in the 1960s, inspiring a whole slew of imitations. The role playing
games of which you speak (there are others, but they would require a
tilde to discuss) were invented in the 1970s.
Now, who do you suppose "stole" from whom? ;-)
Duh.
Uh, perhaps Daniel was joking.
Just a thought.
Andrew
This ought to be a joke, but I can't automatically conclude that for two
reasons:
1) I know gamers who think like this.
2) It's not funny.
-- Chris Csernica
Chris Csernica wrote:
> 1) I know gamers who think like this.
>
> 2) It's not funny.
You've got to be kidding! As an example of trollmanship, it's probably
one of the best I've seen this year...
Chris Csernica wrote:
>I know gamers who think like this.
OMG. These stupid munchkins are giving all of us role-players a bad
name.
Though, I would say that probably a much larger percentage of gamers
(the older and wiser ones at any rate) know better than this.
Wondering how this little piece of flame bait is going to lower this ngs
perception of role-players in general -- Dave
David Sulger wrote:
> Chris Csernica wrote:
>
> >I know gamers who think like this.
>
> Wondering how this little piece of flame bait is going to lower this ngs
> perception of role-players in general -- Dave
Don't worry, it lowered our opinion of trolls instead. Can't they
come up with something a little less silly and obvious?
Are you a complete bonehead? Tolkien wrote the Lord of the Rings before the
very first role playing game's inventor was even an embrio. Try reading
the date things you read are originally published. You might avoid making a
public fool of yourself.
That _is_ the name of the original. Look in the appendices at the line
of Chieftains of the Dunedain.
-- Chris Csernica
Yeah, I was outraged when I realized the whole story was plagiarized from
ICE's "Middle Earth Role-Playing" game system...
But seriously, I have to compliment you on one of the most humorous posts
I've seen anywhere in a long time... I had to read it a few times to
convince myself you weren't joking.
The Hobbit was written in the 1930's, just a *few* years before there were
any RPG's. That's where Mithril comes from. The Lord of the Rings was
written in the late-30's and 40's.
It would be interesting to go through all the RPG's and see how much *they* have stolen from Tolkien. I believe there were some legal issues with T$R
and the Tolkien estate (or maybe the publisher). That's why Hobbits are
called Halflings and Ents are called Treants, to name a few that I can think
of. Also T$R wasn't allowed to use the word Balrog either, so instead you
have Balors.
Actually Tolkien invented a great many of the words (indeed entire
languages) he used. In some other cases he borrowed names from Old English
and Anglo-Saxon.
>Actually Tolkien invented a great many of the words (indeed entire
>languages) he used. In some other cases he borrowed names from Old English
>and Anglo-Saxon.
Well, look at a map of Spain. The province Aragon is there, as well as the
city Bilbao. Hmm, no copyright date for those names, eh? Otoh, Gwyneth
Paltrow would be a great name for an elven princess.
Mark Constantino
(Wilbur07) ha escrito:
>>Actually Tolkien invented a great many of the words (indeed entire
>>languages) he used. In some other cases he borrowed names from Old English
>>and Anglo-Saxon.
>
>Well, look at a map of Spain. The province Aragon is there, as well as the
>city Bilbao. Hmm, no copyright date for those names, eh? Otoh, Gwyneth
>Paltrow would be a great name for an elven princess.
>
>Mark Constantino
Not that I think that Tolkien took these names from these places, but
I must say that Bilbao in Basque (its native language) is called
BILBO.
Doctor Slump
Daniel
LotR was written between 1937 and 1955, and published in 1954 and 1955.
RPGs were first published in 1975.
Please reconsider who "stole" from whom.
Andrew
I remember once reading about a woman who went to a play by Shakespeare,
and noted how the playwright had one problem: he kept using so many tired
old cliches in his dialogue.
This is one of the unusual characteristics of the Internet: even if you
*were* unable to keep a straight face when typing your post, it doesn't
show through the keyboard.
John Savard
Warhammer came after Tolkien, so who's the thief?
The armour in Warhammer is called Ithilmar, not Mithril!!!!
Humorous, but with a familiar tune, and I can't dance to it.
I give this troll a 7.
>Humorous, but with a familiar tune, and I can't dance to it.
> I give this troll a 7.
Well, Dick... I don't agree. You just can't ignore the technical
execution here. Sure, it's a tune that we've heard before, but this
one's truly a virtuoso performance... you can't deny that there are a
*lot* of people that *are* dancing to it. I'd have to give it an 8.
... and now, it's over to Agrajag, for today's Troll report.
Congratulations on a well executed Troll. I laughed a lot at the note, but the best bit were the fools in rec.arts.books.tolkien who took it seriously.
Harry.
Daniel wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> I have just finished the LOTR and I really think it is nice. But did you
> notice that Tolkien stole a lot of the names and other stuff from various
> rpgīs (rpg = role-playing-game: you can imagine this like reading a book,
> the only difference is, that the players jump into the role of a character -
> for example Gandalf, the mighty wizard - and decide on their own, how the
> story goes on)?
Are you so naive?
> Here some examples that I noticed:
>
> - Tolkien writes something about an armour made of mithril - that is
> originally the armour the "High-elves" wear in a strategy game called
> "Warhammer".
He made them both up! Tolkien was there first!
> - There is a forest in LOTR, called Lorien, that as well is stolen from
> "Warhammer", actually the real forest (where the forest-elves live) is named
> "Loren".
Yet again, taken from Tolkien! They used his names!
> - In another rpg (DSA, no idea, what the English name is), there is a hero
> "Arogarn" - so now you may guess three times where strider got his name
> from.
And YOU may guess where the people who made up that game
got their name! Aragorn was here first!
> That are just three examples that I could remember while writing this
> posting, I noticed a lot more when I read the book (I just can remember,
> that I knew a few names from "AD&D", = Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, that is
> an rpg, too).
>
> Please donīt missunderstand me - I liked the book - I just wanted to let you
> know, because that is a thing even most Tolkien-Fans like yo donīt know
> about.
YOU are the one don't know who was there first! Look at the dates
and you'll find Tolkien was everywhere first!
> So farewell my friends,
Grrr!
> Daniel
Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight
Ewoks are Hobbits!
Actually, there, Ermanna, I am rather sure it was a joke. Jesus christ, do
some NNTP servers require that humor be checked at log-in?
>Daniel wrote:
>
>> Hi folks,
>>
>> I have just finished the LOTR and I really think it is nice. But did you
>> notice that Tolkien stole a lot of the names and other stuff from various
>> rpgīs (rpg = role-playing-game: you can imagine this like reading a book,
>> the only difference is, that the players jump into the role of a
character -
>> for example Gandalf, the mighty wizard - and decide on their own, how the
>> story goes on)?
>
>Are you so naive?
>
The pertinent question is: Are you?
>> Here some examples that I noticed:
>>
>> - Tolkien writes something about an armour made of mithril - that is
>> originally the armour the "High-elves" wear in a strategy game called
>> "Warhammer".
>
>He made them both up! Tolkien was there first!
>
Lots of explanation ponts in this reply. It's always the judicious
application of explanation points which separates the hysterical from the
rational in our virtual and inflectionless world.
Breathe deeply and keep repeating "It was a joke..."
>> - There is a forest in LOTR, called Lorien, that as well is stolen from
>> "Warhammer", actually the real forest (where the forest-elves live) is
named
>> "Loren".
>
>Yet again, taken from Tolkien! They used his names!
>
>> - In another rpg (DSA, no idea, what the English name is), there is a
hero
>> "Arogarn" - so now you may guess three times where strider got his name
>> from.
>
>And YOU may guess where the people who made up that game
>got their name! Aragorn was here first!
>
Yes! We get the picture! Thank you! Sheesh!
>> That are just three examples that I could remember while writing this
>> posting, I noticed a lot more when I read the book (I just can remember,
>> that I knew a few names from "AD&D", = Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, that
is
>> an rpg, too).
>>
>> Please donīt missunderstand me - I liked the book - I just wanted to let
you
>> know, because that is a thing even most Tolkien-Fans like yo donīt know
>> about.
>
>YOU are the one don't know who was there first! Look at the dates
>and you'll find Tolkien was everywhere first!
>
>> So farewell my friends,
>
>Grrr!
>
Wow...growling. I only hope you are not frothing. Is it so frustrating that
it has reduced you to some pre-vocal, feral state?
>> Daniel
>
>Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight
>
>Ewoks are Hobbits!
>
So are you Tolkien's humorless cousin, twice removed? Why should an obvious
and harmless little joke provoke such a frightening reaction? It _was_ a
funny (@*$! the begrudgers) comment on how modern society never appreciates
the source. I doubt that the original poster even meant it as a troll. I
read it as a sadly appropriate commentary on this world in which young
people think Hitler stole the word "stormtroopers" from Lucas. On a related
note, Ewoks aren't anything like hobbits, apart from the obvious stature
relationship.
Even if it _was_ a troll, it was hardly worthy of a hysterical response. It
was a rather benign troll, if that is what it was.
In short: mellow out, Francis.
K
Hee hee!
Hee hee hee hee hee hee!
Hee hee hee he he hee hee hehee heeheheheeheheeheheeheheheheheheheh!
>Hee hee hee he he hee hee hehee heeheheheeheheeheheeheheheheheheheh!
Ditto. We're not THAT easy to bait!
> OK, this is a troll, right? Or are you really that logically
> impaired?
It has to be a troll because, cynical as I am, I REFUSE to believe the
American school system has so utterly and fantastically bottomed out.
We might not spell, we might not add, we might not know who Abraham
Lincoln was, but by gosh, we know that 1945 came before 1975. I mean,
we'd _better_ know, right?
Right?
"A. Sieberson" wrote:
<shnip>
> It has to be a troll because, cynical as I am, I REFUSE to believe the
> American school system has so utterly and fantastically bottomed out.
>
> We might not spell, we might not add, we might not know who Abraham
> Lincoln was, but by gosh, we know that 1945 came before 1975. I mean,
> we'd _better_ know, right?
I'm 13 and I don't know and I'm proud of that, because it shows I'm
home-schooled!
> Right?
As I said, I don't know!
> Annie
Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight
>OK, this is a troll, right? Or are you really that logically
> impaired?
It has to be a troll because, cynical as I am, I REFUSE to believe the
American school system has so utterly and fantastically bottomed out.
We might not spell, we might not add, we might not know who Abraham
Lincoln was, but by gosh, we know that 1945 came before 1975. I mean,
we'd _better_ know, right?
Yes, but Americans think that the second world war started in 1941, and that
the major bombing campaign of WWII was the Japanese bombing of the USA ...
Andrew
Huh? Take a look at that message again and look at the email address.
It ends in '.de'. This guy is from Germany.
So? It just shows that the American school system isn't the only one that's
crap.
(Sorry - I'm in a bad mood tonight)
Andrew
GRRRRRRRRRRRRRR! HOW DARE YOU!
WE WILL SET OUR WORST BALROGS
ON YOU! RUN IF YOU VALUE YOUR
LIFE!(and no comments or questions
about how they will get there)
Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight
I recently read your posting (forwarded to me from a friend of mine) where u
accuse Tolkien for steeling names from RPG's... Good observation, only
problem is... It's the other way 'round. You see, Tolkien wrote those books
years before the first fantasy RPG ever saw the light of day... Actually,
the first fantasy rpg's are based on Tolkiens books... So, next time you
decide to accuse a writer for "steeling" namse, make sure you check out that
the book were written AFTER (not before) the "source" of the names, places
etc...
Walter Poschadel
Dann habe ich das ganze aufgeklärt (sonst wäre doch die Schadenfreude nur halb so groß gewesen):
Hello guys,
yes, I forgot that, the whole book is (sorry: was) stolen from merp!!!
:-)
OK, I was really amused when I read your answers, I hope you donīt mind. The
whole "project" was thought out by me and some friends of mine: One night we
were sitting round a fire in a hobbithole (actually it was just a cave on a
moutain in swiss) and one was reading the "Warhammer-high-elves-armybook".
When he said that the armour there was named mithril, too (in German this is
the name, may it be Ithilmar in English), someone meant "another name that
Tolkien stole" (he said it as a joke and in German, of course!!!). Then I
got an idea for in less obvious way I have seen postings like that in other
newsgroups...and by the way we needed something funny for the homepage we
were working on - so our plan was to send an impudent posting to this ng and
put the answers into our homepage.
He he.........and it worked!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ha ha..........HA HA!!!
But I must admit, I did not expect so many of you to identify this as
a......... hey, I learned a new word - always thought that were this big
monsters with oats on there heads :-)
Oh, and thanks to the ones who praised my little troll, especially to Caton
who gave me an 8!
At last some other things (hard to answer so many people in just one
posting!):
- This is not my first posting in this newsgroup although the last could
have been a long time ago
- great idea with Bilb(a)o and Arago(r)n, a los espanoles qué escriben en
este ng: Maria y Maricarmen están en la casa de Maricarmen, en la cocina.
Toman café.
- thanks to the one who believed I was from the USA (just refered to the
language!)
- Maybe some of you think this is a troll again (the cave in the mountains,
the homepage, your answers on this homepage :-) and so on...): no, itīs not,
if you visit our homepage you can watch pictures from the cave, other
locations and the troll who wrote that troll, read your postings
and...............ok I think thatīs it, because itīs all written in German
language and I donīt think too many of you will be able to understand that.
Nevertheless, here the url: www.das-schwarze-ohr.de. Attention, itīs not
finnished yet, all you can see now is "We are working on this page, if you
want to be told when itīs finnished, please send us a mail".
Adiós, Daniel
P.S.: If anyone definately doesnīt want to see his posting on our homepage, please send me a mail.
P.P.S.: I have read the LOTR, the hobbit (in English), the silmarillion,
Nachrichten aus Mittelerde (Earendil in his flying ship may know what that
means in English :-), the Lost Tales, the Atlas and the book with the poems
in and I think it is much much much better than nice!
P.P.P.S.: Just read in another thread something about German beer: Yes we
are forbidden to lower our standarts: German beer may just contain hops and
malt.
>He he.........and it worked!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ha ha..........HA HA!!!
If having people think you're an idiot is your idea of victory, then
victory is yours, Sir Knight.
Come, Patsy...
(sound of coconuts clattering...)